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letters July 3, 2009 Letters to the Editor
No fan of excise tax
In opposing a citizen’s initiative to reduce Maine’s auto excise tax by half, Maine Municipal Association lobbyist Geoff Herman relies on an interesting fact.
In his testimony at a public hearing on the initiative before the Legislature’s Taxation Committee on March 26, Mr. Herman said: “There is nothing new about the motor vehicle excise tax. The motor vehicle excise tax was enacted essentially in its current form 80 years ago.”
He parroted this statistic again in a June 16 article in the BDN, “Battle brewing over bill to reform Maine’s excise tax,” where he said the excise tax was created in 1929 and was amended only once.
Are Maine taxpayers supposed to feel good about paying such high excise taxes simply because the tax is older than most Maine residents? Maine’s auto excise tax is the nation’s seventh-highest, while residents in 22 states don’t pay an excise tax at all.
If I were paying less in excise taxes, I know I wouldn’t feel I was undermining my Maine values. And I certainly don’t feel an overwhelming sense of nostalgia when I go to my town office to pay the excise tax every year, as Mr. Herman would have us believe.
Mr. Herman is doing his best to appeal to Mainers’ sense of duty and pride in his oft repeated point that Maine’s excise tax is 80 years old.
Perhaps I am heartless or stubborn, but I disagree that supporting local tax relief makes me any less of a Mainer.
Sterling Pingree
Kingfield
• • •
Churches, free speech
I noticed a few letter writers want the Maine Revenue Services or the IRS to take away the tax-exempt status of churches that try to overturn the gay marriage law. They say this should be done because these churches shouldn’t be involved in politics. Does this also include the churches that are for gay marriage?
Homosexuality and gay marriage are religious issues as well as political issues. The Democrats created this problem.
Churches against gay marriage should be able to say God considers homosexuality and gay marriage evil and churches for homosexuality and gay marriage should be able to twist God’s truth into a lie. They want to take God’s high standard for marriage and pollute it so anybody sexually perverted can be married.
In 1954, then Sen. Lyndon Johnson had the IRS code changed to silence his political enemies from speaking out against him. The change prohibited churches and other nonprofit groups from opposing or endorsing people running for office.
Churches shouldn’t have their freedoms of religion and speech restricted. The liberals will say or do anything to accomplish this because they want to control people who don’t agree with them. The separation of church and state is a liberal myth just like evolution, global warming and homosexuals are born that way. It is not in the Constitution. And God wouldn’t make homosexuals born that way and turn around and say it’s a sin.
Janice Bodwell
Kenduskeag
• • •
Money not well-spent
Both sides of the gay rights marriage issue are gearing up for a battle and according to an article in the June 18 BDN, an estimated $4 million to $6 million will be spent by the two sides.
Those millions donated to Good Shepherd Food Bank would feed a lot of hungry Maine families.
Four to six million dollars would provide a lot of low-income Maine children and their parents with warm clothing for the coming winter.
Four to six million dollars would provide a lot of children from low-income families with desperately needed dental care.
Four to six million dollars would provide a lot of fuel assistance for low-income families to stay warm this winter.
I have thought about it and I think that both sides should shake hands, go home and spend their money on more humanitarian causes.
Betty Q. Chiappone
Orrington
• • •
Road fix killed
Reference is made to the BDN’s June 24 article “Stripped DOT paving budget jars road repair crews, towns.”
As a Republican senator on the Transportation Committee, I had a great amendment: S-335 would have repealed gas tax indexing, equalized the gasoline and diesel fuel tax and increased the tax 2.5 cents on July 1 and 2.5 cents on April 1 of next year.
My amendment got buried in politics and died. It would have solved this summer and future paving problems.
Sen. Walter R. Gooley
Farmington
• • •
Protecting Ellsworth
The Ellsworth City Council met on June 15 to discuss a new automobile graveyard-junkyard on North Street. Many of my neighbors attended the meeting out of concerns for their property. We are in an area that has wetland, springs, vernal pools as well as Graham Lake. Two people who abut the proposed junkyard have organic farms, and an organic cranberry bog.
At the beginning of the meeting the city manager mentioned that Ellsworth needed to become more green. I was impressed because that was our concern, to keep our area safe, green and organic. One junkyard on North Street is enough. That one is not near the springs, wetland or the lake.
Then there was a discussion about the state wanting Ellsworth to adopt new rules on zoning for shoreland. One of the councilors stated that he disliked the state imposing its rules on Ellsworth. His attitude was that this is our town and we should not have these rules imposed upon us. He was the same person who later wanted to push the automobile graveyard on us without a complete application.
This is why there has to be state regulations, because if someone is turning in an incomplete application with disregard to springs, wetland, etc., is he going to be the type of person to ensure that no damage happens to other people’s property as well as the lake? This project needs to have an environmental impact statement done before proceeding. There is too much at stake.
Ellsworth has two automobile graveyards. How many more do we need?
Bonnie MacGregor
Ellsworth
• • •
Tradition and virtue
In Robert A. Simpson’s letter to the editor of June 19, he expresses consternation at the removal from state marriage law of a section referencing “the moral values inherent in traditional monogamous marriage.” He asks revealingly why “those who claim to want marriage for themselves” deleted this section.
Leaving aside the idea that same-sex partners only “claim” to want equal marriage rights, does Mr. Simpson really not understand that few of the people who voted for this change are gay?
Our elected representatives, almost all of whom already enjoy the benefits of marriage, realized that tradition is no virtue when it condemns our fellow Mainers to a second-class status.
Richard D. Simpson
Orrington
• • •
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Sterling Pingree, You have no idea what you are talking about. You do not understand, because you have never lived anywhere else. We pay a higher excise tax because we pay less in other fees and it spreads the tax base across the table so that property taxes will stay lower. People trying to break their own community are idiots. If you want to lower taxes do it in the right places. Lower state taxes. There is so much waste at the state level it is not funny. Reduce state government, reduce welfare, then we can reduce taxes and the businesses will come in.
Sen. Walter R. Gooley, so your answer to fixing roads is to steal more money from the citizens of Maine instead of fixing the misappropriation and the extensive waste in the state. Good thinking.
If homosexuals aren't born that way, then are you saying that everyone has homosexual urges and only the evil ones choose to succumb to them? By that logic, are all the anti-gay posters here also attracted to members of the same sex, but through the grace of the god you worship, you're able to fight back the demon? Is that what you're saying, Ms. Bodwell? Anyone who isn't out is a closet queen? Or dyke?
I'm trying to recall when I opted to be attracted to the same sex, but darned if I can. THAT'S BECAUSE I'VE ALWAYS BEEN GAY! Jeez...
At least you managed to deny evolution in the same breath. That provided some comic relief.
You are so right Betty, let's all make a sizable donation to the charity of our choice, feel good about adding to the health and welfare of our world, and let the law stand as it has been passed. I'm afraid that by the time this is over hatred and division are going to hold s
way over the State of Maine. We are better than that. This is Maine. We are neighbours and we care for each other. Can't we just live and let live and go on with our lives?
Sterling Pingree - No it doesn't make you less of a Mainer to complain about taxes, if it did there wouldn't be a Mainer alive.
Janice Bodwell - Nobody should be tax exempt.
Betty Q. Chiappone - Gay mar... borrrrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnngggggg!
Sen. Walter R. Gooley - I don't pretend to have read your plan and subsequently won't pretend to know if it would have worked the way you say it would, however let me say this, every penny this state has spent on roads in my life time is money wasted. The roads are all crap by the end of WInter.
Bonnie MacGregor - Ellsworth can worry about its own problems. God knows Bangor has its own to deal with.
Richard D. Simpson - Gay mar... borrrrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnnngggggg!
Let's call a halt to the whole fight and create peace. Don't we have a world famous seeds of peace camp here in Maine where we bring children from all over the world to live next to those who are enemies in their homeland, and this all in the hopes of moving the world toward peace. We could all learn a lesson from these children. Let's put our differences aside and get along. Let's be true Mainers. The way life ought to be.
Janice Bodwell, the one part of your letter I do agree with is your last sentence "And God wouldn’t make homosexuals born that way and turn around and say it’s a sin." Exactly, which means homosexuality is probably not a sin. Gay people "deciding" to be gay is a lot more far fetched than the idea that God loves them just the way they are!
robin56: Betty Chiappone did not exactly say let the law stand as it has been passed. That is not exactly what she is saying. She said both sides should put their money and efforts into feeding hungry families,etc. Maybe one is not mutually exclusive from the other (giving same sex couples the right to marry and gain certain protections and also helping our fellow man and neighbors.)
I understand that she did not say that exactly, just adding my point, why keep fighting and tearing each other apart. As a member of the glbt community I am really hurt by everything that is being said. I was an active member of a more conservative church at one point in my life, and now I feel very estranged from people that I still love and care for.
robin56: I think I finally get your point. I will not sign the petition of those who are opposed , as I, as a heterosexual woman, am for the rights of same-sex couples to marry. I dislike all the division as well. And I still think people can help others (with food,etc.) and at the same time be in favor of the rights and dignity of all.
I guess Betty, the letter writer, meant leave it as Maine has decided and not go through all this petition process (and opposition to that) and let what was adopted in Maine last month, stand. If so, same-sex couples would be allowed to marry.
Yes, and thank you.
Taxes in this state are outrageous....calling Massachusetts "taxachusetts" is a joke here in this state as we beat them in just about everything...and get less for our money.....I have an acquaintance in Florida who registered his newly bought one year old "used" car and paid about $30 TOTAL in fees.....how do they manage and have no state sales tax? We should be rolling in dough at the rate we are taxed....I am seriously looking to move in my retirement years as I don't think my pension will stretch enough to remain here....Our state government is wasteful and we have too many representatives/senators costing us lots. I would like to see the paper do an article on the benefits that our state legislators get besides their salaries.....travel, housing, food, health care, etc...what is the true value of what they receive? plus how many hours do they work a year? Our great gov has increased our taxes, lied to us (remember not enforcing the teacher fingerprinting bit he promised...big joke!!!) Yeah, great idea taxing more on gas.....thanks alot!!
"No fan of excise tax" No it does not make you less of a mainer-more like a tax and spend liberal or a communist
One way to get out of paying excise tax is to choose not to own a car. It lessons the need for those messy auto graveyards, too!
Sterling, well said! While the reduced income tax is a great idea, that does not justify the major expansion in sales tax and lost exemptions. We taxpayers are going to pay more in the end, and that just isn't right. When will our legislators realize we need major spending cuts in state government? This should be done by reducing the amount of wasteful programs and all of the related state jobs. It’s time for these wasteful political games with our tax dollars to stop!
It won't be easy, but it has to be done! If you believe the state should cut spending, come join the solution at Maine Taxpayers United, www.MaineTaxpayers.com
and now on Facebook. BTW, the mission of ‘Maine Taxpayers United’ is to reduce the Maine tax burden and promote prudent government spending.
Just a comment on excise. The way the citizens initiative is written only the wealthy will profit. People that can afford to pay for the expensive cars will get the break while the people who really need the help will pay the same. The mil rate at the low end will stay the same and those are the cars that the less fortunate are able to buy. Also people that can afford to buy brand new hybrids will pay nothing for the first three years. Municipalities will have to make up the lost revenue some where and where do you think that will be.........property taxes. I believe the MSRP's are inflated. For those of you who actually purchase brand new cars, when was the last time you actually paid what the window sticker said? It is my experience that most don't. Why not go on what you actually paid for it? If this passes it will simply be a shift from one tax to another and the wealthy will once again get the break.
Just curious...
Why shouldn't homosexuals receive the same protections and guarantees for a healthy, monogamous, committed relationship?
What awful things are going to happen if they do?
seacoast, I think the point your missing is that we all have a sin nature in us. Who among us doesn't struggle with sin in one way or another. Yours happens to be homosexuality. Your take on that letter is quite an interesting twist to say the least. Now let's hear your version on how the world came into existance. That's where you'll find the comic relief you speak of.
4Him guess what.
Not everyone is or wants to be Christian!
GASP!!!
And ...GASP, not everyone wants gays to marry!
But no one can explain what horrors await when gays can marry.
That's what's so crazy... no one can point to any catastrophes we're going to face.
And... bigotry has always been true.
People didn't want women to vote.
People didn't want backs free... or in the same schools... or in the same restaurant... or in the same bathroom.. etc...
People didn't want native Americans to vote.
People didn't want backs and whites to marry.
But we've moved beyond that. We will move beyond this, because there will be no negative consequences.
4him...I'm not struggling with my sexuality. It's people like you who seem to have a problem with it.
As to Earth's formation, I'll leave that to the scientific realm to figure out. The difference with that and your take is that science is always challenging its findings. I don't worship science, but I'll take their word for it. It's not a religion to me.
Look at the facts you worship vs those of science. Oops, guess you can’t; you worship the heroes of ancient tales.
Really, which is the better comedy fodder?
Janice Bodwell - Well said. You're absolutely right in everything you said, unfortunately, it won't set well with many of the commenters. You're letter will be bashed from self proclaimed Christians and non-Christians alike. Prepare for the name calling and negativity. Stand firm, because there are more people that agree with your position then are against.
Richard Simpson - When people choose the homosexual lifestyle, they reduce themselves to second class status. It's a hazard of their own doing.
4him I could write an argumentative response to all of your points, but today I am just feeling sad about all the hatred and division that is raising it's head in Maine. . .Setting neighbors against each other and stealing our peace. Jesus said "Blessed are the Peacemakers" Today I'm declaring a day of Peace.
EJ- I could argue with all your points as well-I am one of those you consider second class- even though I can declare "I am fearfully and wonderfully made. but I'll follow Jesus today and say Peace be upon you
tedlick - Women, native Americans and blacks are all that way by birth. Homosexuals are in their group by choice. As to the horrors if gays are allowed to marry: try the loss of freedoms by heterosexuals, special protective laws that fail to protect Christians and will, in fact, threaten to jail pastors for preaching Biblical truths from the pulpit, then there's three-way marriages (already in court), marriage of human and animal (already tried on more than one occasion), multiple bathroom issues to accomodate all the other sexually perverted people. Then, of course, is the fact that open acceptance of any kind of sexual perversion is a major factor in the fall of some of the greatest empires, and it will be a major factor in the fall of America.
EJ tired of the rhetoric. . Let's take a lesson from the children at the Seeds of Peace Camp and declare that we will learn to get along
robin56 - I don't consider anyone second class. That's society that labels people by classes. I also don't hate anyone, no matter how they live or how they feel about a particular issue, or how they feel about me and my beliefs. I am very comfortable in my beleifs, and if you are, then that's between you and God. I happen to believe what the Bible says about spreading the good news, about sin, and about repentance and grace from Jesus Christ. You see, Jesus didn't condone sin with any of those He came in contact with. He did, on repeated occasions, tell them they were forgiven and followed that up with "Go and sin no more." In saying this, He accepted the person, but did not accept the sin. And, granted, Jesus did not directly address homosexuality in the red letters, but He did send His servant, Paul, to speak on the subject, and several others, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The glory of these two verses are that they are followed by verse 11 where Paul proclaims that there is a chance for forgiveness through repentance of these sins. My prayer is that everyone turns from their sinful lifestyles and accepts and follows Christ. I'll get the usual blasting for that, but so be it. I've done my part.
Again, I don't hate anyone. I would love to see everyone in Heaven when it's all said and done. No one, no matter what they've done in life, deserves an eternity in Hell. Not even Osama Bin Laden, Perez Hilton, or the self proclaimed athiests that comment within. No one.
We have a theological difference- again I am not going to argue. I have spent many years working this through. Peace to you.
There will be no loss of freedoms by heterosexuals that aren't already coming: and I'm not a supporter of them.
Christianity is a choice: homosexuality is not, though you are of course welcome to your opinion.
I don't consider your biblical premises to be truth: they are not truth for me.
Bathrooms apply to whatever equipment their user has: that's pretty simple.
And saying that it will open up acceptance for any kind of sexual perversion is like saying that because we allow Muslims to practice their faith in America, we'll soon be living under Muslim law.
None are consequences of our government extending the same guarantees and protections to gay couples.
Lastly, there is no shred of evidence in any culture we know of to show that what you call sexual perversion has lead to a culture's downfall.
These are all speculative at best, prejudiced at worst.
Still waiting for evidence that extending said protections and guarantees to gay couples will lead to our downfall.
tedlick - It's obvious that you will accept nothing that goes against your biased view, so what's the use. Of course, nothing you could say would change my biased view, either. So, I guess that means we've got stubborness in common. I admire you for standing your ground.
EJP...why do you people keep saying homosexuals are that way by choice? You're speaking about us like you're deaf when we say we did NOT choose our sexual orientation. Homosexual behavior is a choice, based upon our natural orientation...just like heterosexual behavior vs orientation.
Please learn the difference between orientation and resulting behavior, and stop saying we're homosexual by choice. We aren't.
If someone can offer up facts to demonstrate how marriage equality is harmful, I'm all ears. But I need facts: not speculation and evidence of other societal issues that are unrelated.
Yes, people(everyone).....keep standing your ground. Everyone who has strong , deep, committed beliefs should stand their ground. I agree with EJParsons on that.
tedlick: Great comments at 10:21 AM No, our civilization has, and will, continue on quite well, thank you. Oh sure.....there are always going to be differences of opinion, problems,etc. But most of us know that ultimately, things seem to work out. People keep trying.....they keep going on. It is part of the resilience and optimism of the American people (and people just in general for the most part.) It will be fine. And as for the same-sex marriage question.....unfortunately people like Charlie Howard and others have paid with their lives in this struggle for decency and equality. But lessons were learned from that horrible act by many many people......that injustice will not be allowed to be justified or accepted in any way. (and by the way.....America is not "going to fall.")
robin56: You are not a second-class person......disregard such a statement. Do not let that make you sad or discouraged. That is not how many many people think. Have hope.
Thank you
Tedlick you keep spouting off that no one has stepped up to the plate and answered your questions from the "other side". That is untrue and you know it. I have been over this with you for months and have answered it several times. It's not the answer you want. You and I have completely opposite world views and will never come to an agreement on this. Any time immoral behavior is allowed, society suffers. Proven fact time and time again. pointless to go over this with you as we can't agree on whats moral. This why this needs to be voted on rather than letting liberal judges decide for America what they deem to be moral or immoral.
I guess it's convenient to point a finger at "liberal judges" and call their decisions immoral. But what about those same judges who decided that segregation was wrong (for African Americans, Native Americans, etc). Slavery was wrong. Hate crimes are wrong. Were they immoral then?? Or would you be screaming some bible verse about blacks and whites not mixing because it's against G-d's will. C'mon now...you honestly think rights should be voted on? Let me vote on yours then. Your religious preference seems to be a choice and a right..let's see, do I want to ban it or say that you have to go to a Mosque now? Decisions, decisions.
ms-sherlock, where does the bible speak out against interracial marriage?
I'm sorry, but did I say there was a verse? I really don't care if the bible does or does not approve of interracial marriage. But I'm sure a majority of people against interracial marriage use[d] a bible verse to "prove" their "argument".
Just like people are using bible verses against what you call "gay marriage". It was silly back then and it's silly now.
Forhim: Anybody here seen my old friend Martin? Let's plant some seeds of Peace.
Guys and gals ignore the mean people, they're a dying breed and just enjoy the holiday weekend. No minds will be changed on these boards and nothing written here will change the mind of anyone reading. All it does is a allow a few to bully the many and feel good about themselves for a change. Ignore them, you'll feel better and they'll eventually go away.
"The clergy by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1800
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelations that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed." John Admas, 1816
One can still be a Christian but not believe it is a good thing for religious leaders to get "ingrafted into the machine of government." Government should also not intrude on churches. There is a reason for separation of church and state and why it has been in existence for as long as it has.
ms-sherlock, so your sure the "majority" used the bible to prove their argument. What is your source of that statistic?
Chersully, I have the feeling you have no idea what was said in what you just posted, read it again carefully :)
another great quote by John Adams “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
John Adams
John Adams, appropriate for this weekend, “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
John Adams again: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
Another good one by John Adams:"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
4Him,
You only answer with religion (which only applies to followers) or you answer with unfortunate issues taking place without gay marriage.
You have not stated ONE fact that shows the negative outcome of gay marriage. So, we're all still waiting for evidence that gay marriage will some how be hurtful to our society. Where is your "proven fact"?
Yeah, we should vote on it, just like all other civil rights issues in history.
Now, instead of spouting religious propaganda that we do not all follow, how about showing a factual piece that demonstrates how other states and nations have suffered by extending equality to the committed relationship of gays.
Frankly, I don't think you can do it because you're lying by saying that you have.
That, my friend, is a sin against your God.
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
4Him,
We can play that game all day...
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
Lying is indeed a sin, you have actually for once spoken the truth today. I've been over this with you time and time again. Your only response is calling me, lets see now, A pus, a oozing sore, a pimple, wishing I would die in a fire, calling my god a sky wizard, calling my bible a book of fables, calling my god a monster, calling me evil, etc.. I see no reason in trying to make a point with such a juvenile. Now how about more qoutes from our Founding fathers that you claim had no part of Christianity. Totally appropriate for the 4th of july wouldn't you say.
The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
James Madison - 1785
"What influence , in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances, they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instances have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliiaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
I call it as I see it, and you do not promote a loving god. And you wish we "sinners" to die in a fire every freaking day.
And you STILL have not provided ONE FACT.
And your interpretation of God is a monster 4Him...
People are begging me to stop responding to you because, frankly, you sicken them. But I want irrefutable proof from you, the greatest opponent of them all...
How is our world going to be harmed by gay marriage?
And find me one quote of Jesus or the bible in our founding documents. Just one...
John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed
Benjamin Franklin:
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church but practiced it upon the Puritans. The Puritans found it wrong in the Bishops of the Church of England, but fell into the same practice themselves in New England (America.)"
tedlick: Let's hope no Americans are denied equality and dignity in this country. A good thought on the 4th of July weekend.
John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
tedlick: But in some strange way, 4Him takes it as sort of a "compliment" that he sickens you and your friends.
Have a good day.
Hard to believe that there are some people that don't believe our country had Christian beliefs since it's beginnings.
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Yes, cher... I know. But many of these people have a personal relationship with God via the same avenues, and he denounces them as well. The words and commandments of Jesus appear to mean nothing to him. He is a prideful soul, proud in his assurance that only he has the right answer.
His pride will see him beside me in his hell.
Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
and yet another thread destroyed by cut and paste.
please ignore him
4Him,
No one has said that our country hasn't held Christian beliefs since its founding.
But Christian beliefs are found nowhere in our founding papers, and you know that to be fact.
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience
Sure there were Christian beliefs around since the beginning....and there always will be.
But many would not believe, in reading Jefferson's writings in totality, that he would sanction the second class treatment of any American citizens.
Don't you just love the 4th of July? Its time for America to once again turn its heart towards home.......To our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Have a happy and safe 4th everyone.
Still no evidence, folks.
Methinks the arguments against marriage equality must be bogus as not one solid example has been posted in the days since I first made my request.
Lots of speculation... lots of examples of unfortunate situations already happening in our world today.
But not one iota of evidence that the states and nations that have rightfully (and in keeping with the commandments of Jesus to love others as you love yourself) extended equal protection and guarantees under the government have suffered in any way whatsoever.
Because there isn't one iota of evidence.
Oh just one more, this is too good to let pass.
Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
4Him,
This is not a discussion on religion. Why do you love insuring that you'll never, ever, win anyone for Christ?
Now here was a real hero of a president,
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible
*sigh*
Tedlick, you enjoy your weekend, hope you get to do some fishing.
You too, my friend.
All this religious stuff is boring.
I do like historical quotes. Our forefathers had a lot more to say about freedom and liberty and God than anyone in government today. Our present administration, our Congress (both sides) and our children should listen and learn from the great men and women that founded America. If the majority of Americans actually knew what and how our country was established and what our forefathers went through and believed, they would be appalled at the goings on in Washington. Of course, if enough Americans knew our great history, we would never have voted in the people that got us into this mess. I'll bet they're all spinning in their graves right now.
For you later forHIMtoday in case your leaving; I gather you weren't always this religious and I can understand why you hold onto your beliefs so tightly now, you believe they will save you. They won't save you, you have to do that yourself. It takes putting others before yourself. Hope you relax this weekend, sit back and look at those around you and be thankful that they still put up with you. You know I'm right, all that self righteousness and you on your throne, your wife must be loving that while she's toeing the line for you. hahaha.. You have a great weekend now 4 ..
4him, I am praying that God will grant you a sense of peace, obviously you are over the edge with this, and I imagine your entire family is suffering with you.
4him will not find peace until he thinks for himself and actually cares about others in a loving way. That would take real soul searching that can't be found in a book, it can only be found in the heart.
I'm sure you're right. Sad to see so much hatred spewing in the name of a "loving" god. I do imagine his or her family is really suffering.
There is no hatred "spewing" from forHIM. If you detect hatred, then you are reading it into what he's trying to say. He is speaking with love and concern for the lost. Adding his family into your comments are unnecessary. It's as if some here are looking for conflict.
Hatred? Not really... intolerance, pride, and judgmental condemnation in spades.
Love and concern would be respect for those who are not Christians, as ramming the bible down people's throats whether they are interested is disrespectful as hell.
2 for the price of one !
My analogy is: way back when after Roe Vs .. many people were against abortions except for true physical health of mother.
I thought it was a reasonable solution. however if it was known that late term, 3rd tri-mester, and partial birth abortions, would
be included in the acceptance of Roe - Then I KNOW that it would have been overturnedn somehow.
So you may be for gay 'marriage' now but can you foresee what unintended consequences there may be?
No.
I don't believe there will be any.
No one will be harmed. Society will continue (Roe v. Wade did not destroy the US). Life will go on as usual.
Fascinating that 4him insists on quoting the founders and their beliefs about the "Ten Commandments". 4him, as well as the rest of fundamentalist Christians keep saying that the "Ten Commandments" are what Christianity is based upon, and they insist on trying to place monuments containing them on as many public buildings as possible. 4him also agrees with James Madison:
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.” and "We’ve staked the future of all our political i institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
Interesting thing is-----the "Ten Commandments" comprised ALL 613 laws, statutes and ordinances that GOD gave to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai. NO ONE has any authority to say which of the "Ten Commandments" can be altered, disregarded or ignored---NO ONE. So how can Jamed Madison TRUTHFULLY SAY that he and his contemporaries 'followed the Ten Commandments with all their heart' if they ignored MOST of them?
4him also quotes Joseph Story: "
"One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
I wonder if 4him can tell us exactly WHICH Christian principles are (were) part of the Common Law.?
Who cares.
oh yea
EJ, AGAINSThimtoday, and Janice...please point me to the NEW TESTAMENT chapter and verse where Christ condemns someone for being a homosexual. Until you are able to do that, stop screaming that CHRISTianity opposes homosexuality. And will you all please stop quoting the OPINIONS of LONG SINCE DEAD PEOPLE (in this case Adams, Hamilton, Franklin, and Charles Carroll) as being some sort of fact that we should all oooh and ahhhh about. Those were his OPINIONS. they carry no more weight than the babble you spout off about every single day. Trust me...nobody will be quoting your words. Put your 'book of quotations' down and read the NEW TESTAMENT which you claim to be your guide. Maybe you'll finally see that you're on the wrong track.
And to think that 'the goings on in washington' is anything new is to REALLY be ignorant of history
karenlite: You are so right. Most ,except for EJParsons, have heard a very different tone over the months. It is not a Christian like way to treat others. But Mr Parsons would not pick up on the arrogance apparently. There is a big difference between confidence in one's views and arrogance.
Happy Fourth of July!
Drinky - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 spells it out quite plainly. Problem is that Paul, a servant of Christ, wrote these words, so most secularites refuse to accept it because it didn't come directly from Jesus' mouth. By doing this, you've reduced the Bible down from 66 books to only 4 (5 if you believe that Revelation is an accurate account). That can't be done. You see, Jesus didn't directly address a lot of issues. But, He did directly refer to the Scriptures 19 times when he uttered the words, "it is written."
When it comes to the Bible, it's all or nothing, y'all. I choose all.
By the way, there's a new article in the Religion section that should get some interesting comments. Check it out.
forHimtoday - 1:19 comment,
Well, here's some sources:
In 1958, 94% of Americans disapproved of marriages between "whites and non-whites".
[Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/most-americans-approve-interracial-marriages.aspx]
In 1958, approximately 92% of Americans identified as Christian.
[Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/117409/easter-smaller-percentage-americans-christian.aspx]
See a correlation anywhere? If 94 percent of Americans disapproved, and 92 percent were Christian, then there's a very strong possibility that the majority used the bible to make their arguments.
Have a great and glorious fourth. This country is founded on human rights and the rights of all religions and the right to be non-religious. The founders of this nation knew the benefits of religion and the dangers. We should remember both today and always as there are dangers in fanatics, dangers in the presence of religion in government. The gay marriage debate has nothing to do with religion, either did rights for blacks, women and other minorities. Keep perspective and the religious extremists will lose, lose perspective and we are in deep trouble.....
jspear, nice try. Our country was founded on christian principles. Gay marriage has everything to do with religion. It's you that fails to see the big picture. There's nothing fanatical about calling homosexuality immoral, that's a given. Now enjoy the 4th and quit your incessant whining.
Hope everyone is having a great 4th.
jspear, agree with your 2:46 statement that gay marriage has nothing to do with religion. Religious denominations/churches/clergy/justices are exempt from the new Civil Marriage law WITHOUT ramifications. That is what the title is: An Act To End Discrimination in Civil Marriage and Affirm Religious Freedom NOT marriages performed in religious settings. Close relatives are covered here, prohibited unless a doctor certifies they have received genetic counseling and Poligamy is also covered, Prohibited. The only Gay marriage that will have anything to do with religion is the one performed by a church that chooses to perform it.
JACK B.
jspear: Good comments. Funny it is "incessant whining" when you make comments....and not when someone, who thinks differently than you, does........something about that does not add up. Anyway, you can do what you want....and express yourself the way you want. No one here can tell you what to do.
4him AGAIN said: "Our country was founded on christian principles."
_____________________________________________
Will 4him ever answer this question: exactly which Christian principles was this country founded on?
anytime, 4him....???
Such obvious Christian love is going to win you so many souls for Jesus, 4Him. Good job!
I'm sure people are stumbling over themselves right now to reach such an "enlightened" state.
frankforter,
He won't answer you with anything relevant.
Just like he still hasn't shown one fact demonstrating how countries and states that have extended equality have suffered in any way.
It's been a happy 4th my friends, good people standing up for the truth. Our country was founded on freedom FROM religion and has everything to do with gay marriage equality.
Had a happy fourth, you're right karen, we can choose not to apply religion to our lives, god bless america! tedlick, there is no positive in this way of thinking, only hate, fear and intolerance. I do like to whine, I wonder how anyone knows that ;)) free2bee, hope the people of maine know the same thing when and if the vote comes up. To all that support fairness and equal access, great job, to those against, either for religious or more dark reasons.....peace.
jspear: Good summation. And of course we can apply religion to our lives if one chooses, without telling others how to live their lives and without inserting religion intrusively in government. Not all Christians do that and come across as a few here do. That is the difference. And once again, this country is comprised of people of so many varying backgrounds, faiths, ethnic groups. Always has been a melting pot.
4HIM, the word immoral is a subjective term, and defined by the user.